My Lives and Live+'s have always worked with Surround via HDMI, EXCEPT for a brief period in late 1.03.xx (resolved in 1.04.xx) where it stopped working on my PIONEER VSX-919 receiver. It started working again in version 1.04.xx.
During that same time, it REMAINED working on my PIONEER VSX-920.
All of my devices are HDMI connected to the AVR, which is then HDMI connected to the TV. All of the TV’s have their internal speakers DISABLED since the AVRs are handling 100% of the audio.
They are all set to DIGITAL audio output.
I never used the S/PDIF interfaces.
Sorry for dbl post…
So your directly connected to the sound system, but via HDMI, I dont think I have HDMI inputs on my sound system, but I will check, maybe I will have to set up an additional channel for WD via the sound system
Why is this copy protection build into the WDTV live and not the Gen 2, I understand what they have done, but why do Gen2 devices not need it and Lives do?
That’s also why they couldn’t just add Netflix to the WDTV Live, and had to build the WDTV Live Plus instead. Netflix (and the other premium content) requires the DRM-capable processor. That’s the difference between a Live and a Live Plus if you open the case. The Live has the same “standard” processor that the Gen2 does… the Live Plus has the Macrovision version of the same chip.
In order to offer the premium content, the processor must be able to handle the protected streams, and must protect the outputs. It’s a requirement for offering Netflix and the other premium content.
Also, copy protecting only from the HDMI still leaves the optical port open to copying, whats the point of the copy protection if it only prevents copying from one port and leaves another completely open to copying…
There’s a lot of “extras” in the HDMI standard that aren’t available for optical. The optical connection doesn’t have the “room” for all the extras. But, when the HDMI standards were being written, they added a method of protecting content, and the devices are expected to obey the protections. It’s kinda like why they don’t/can’t add protection to the RCA stereo outs too… it just isn’t physically possible.
I suppose the Live (non plus) does not have netflix due to the DRM protection, right?
Also, why couldn’t they have just limited the copy protection just to the premium content, this makes things very annoying for people like me who like to have things simple, like no matter whats on your TV, the sound will always be from the surround, is that so much to ask lol.
Correct. WD can not physically (or legally) get a non-Plus Live to play Netflix content.
That’s why they had to go out and build the Live Plus when everyone was asking for Netflix support (which made the Live owners who were requesting Netflix, feel ripped off that it didn’t get added to the Lives and if they wanted the Netflix they’d asked for they’d have to go out and buy a whole new player).
johnccc wrote:
Also, why couldn’t they have just limited the copy protection just to the premium content
That one I don’t have a good answer for. I honestly have no clue. It could be a chip limitation, or it could be a legal requirement, or it could just be the way WD did it.
I think it only “engages” HDCP when you are viewing premium content…
– CinemaNow
– NetFlix
– BlockBuster
At other times, HDCP is not being used that I can tell.
I’m basing this only on my observation that my TV flickers when HDCP is engaged (a half second or so of “Snow”) as described by the WD knowledgebase article.
As far as I can tell, if the TV and/or AVR doesn’t support HDCP, then those services WILL NOT WORK via HDMI. The only option in those cases is to use COMPONENT (or composite) video. NETFLIX, in that case, will only output 480p via component and 480i via composite. I don’t know what CN and BB do in those cases…
Okay then, looks like we have a culprit, but not a solution as yet.
How may ideas we got here, so far, we have unplug and replug my very delicate and expensive optical cable, with the possibility of breaking it every time
Can I connect the WDTV to the coaxial sound port directly? (and still get surround, Dolby/DTS)
Any other idea’s anybody?
TonyPh12345 wrote:
I think it only “engages” HDCP when you are viewing premium content…
– CinemaNow
– NetFlix
– BlockBuster
At other times, HDCP is not being used that I can tell.
I’m basing this only on my observation that my TV flickers when HDCP is engaged (a half second or so of “Snow”) as described by the WD knowledgebase article.
As far as I can tell, if the TV and/or AVR doesn’t support HDCP, then those services WILL NOT WORK via HDMI. The only option in those cases is to use COMPONENT (or composite) video. NETFLIX, in that case, will only output 480p via component and 480i via composite. I don’t know what CN and BB do in those cases…
I can watch netflix, I have an account and it works via the HDMI to the TV.
I don’t doubt that HDCP for the Video streams only gets engaged for the premium content, Tony.
But it seems fairly likely, since the OP’s TV will pass a Gen2 HDMI audio signal over the TV’s optical port, but actively blocks the Live Plus HDMI audio signals, that the audio is HDCP protected, whether it “should” be or not. It’s the only real reason for his devices to behave the way they do.
The entire digital pipeline is encrypted in one channel. If the TV can interpret and display the VIDEO, then the AUDIO must also have been decrypted.
So, in other words, if the VIDEO is NOT HDCP encrypted, then neither is the audio.
An interesting experiment would be to try this with a LIVE NON-Plus to see if it works. If it does, the mystery persists. If it does NOT, then it’s not HDCP related.
When I was having surround issues on my Pioneer, described above, it was with both a Live+ and non-plus.
I didn’t say “encrypted”… I said “protected”. If the audio has the “No Copy” flag set, then then TV can’t act as a repeater and pass the audio along to another device.
I didn’t say “encrypted”… I said “protected”. If the audio has the “No Copy” flag set, then then TV can’t act as a repeater and pass the audio along to another device.
This is just a bad idea, why integrate something like this, its more trouble than its worth, I mean no copy, this is lame, I already copied/ripped the bluray disc and put it on my hard drive, so basically, from the bluray disc, its encrypted, I decrypt it to copy to my Hard drive (as backup, well the disc is the backup, I use the copy lol) anywho, so as its playing, it gets flagged no copy again, this is insane, who invented this, it is a P.I.T.A.
Well, I honestly don’t know if the WDTV Live Plus is supposed to be setting the flag for all output streams, or not. I’d tend to doubt it (especially since the other devices don’t set it for the same streams), and this may very well be a bug.
All I know is that most of the TV manufacturers admit they read the flag and stick to it. If the flag is set, they won’t pass the audio (or some won’t pass it whether it’s set or not, but this obviously doesn’t apply to your TV, since it passes the Gen2 signal). So, as far as I can see, your TV is doing what it’s supposed to – when it gets a “No-Copy” audio stream, it won’t pass it along. I can’t think of any other reason for the Gen2 audio to get passed, but the Live Plus audio to be blocked.
The question to WD is why is the flag apparently being set?
Well, I honestly don’t know if the WDTV Live Plus is supposed to be setting the flag for all output streams, or not. I’d tend to doubt it, and this may be a bug.
All I know is that most of the TV manufacturers admit they read the flag and stick to it. If the flag is set, they won’t pass the audio (or some won’t pass it whether it’s set or not, but this obviously doesn’t apply to your TV, since it passes the Gen2 signal). So, as far as I can see, your TV is doing what it’s supposed to – when it gets a “No-Copy” audio stream, it won’t pass it along.
The question to WD is why is the flag apparently being set?
I have already contacted support with a duplicate of my original post, hopefully they get back to me on it and we can get a accurate answer on this whole deal…
I’ve still been trying to do more research, to see what I can sort out.
As far as I can tell from the HDCP stuff, the TV should be legally allowed to act as a repeater and send the signal over the optical, as long as it sets the flag on the optical stream to “Copy Never”. (I was mistaken earlier when I thought the optical didn’t have any copy flags). It appears as if most TVs have not wanted to tread on thin ice or were expecting future legislative changes, however, and simply don’t pass a “Copy Never” signal (and some won’t pass _ any _ signals, whether “Copy Never” or not).
So, there’s already a muddle because some TVs will pass all HDMI audio, some will pass no HDMI audio, and some will pass HDMI audio as long as it’s not “Copy Never”.
But, reading other .pdfs, it seems to me as if the WDTV should only be sending “Copy Never” flags if the original stream has those flags already set within it (but the Gen1 and Gen2 should be doing the same thing). So, my limited understanding is either:
the material really does have “Copy Never” set, and the older devices have a bug which ignores it (I find this one highly unlikely – content I create myself should not have “Copy Never” or any HDCP controls)
the material does not have “Copy Never” set, and the Live Plus shouldn’t be turning this flag on (which seems to be going on, based on your description, but without $15,000 for an HDMI Analyzer, I can’t prove this is what the problem is )
There still could be something else happening here, but it still seems to me as if the TV is being told that it is not allowed to pass the audio along to another device. And it seems to me as if this shouldn’t be the case. I’m interested to hear WD’s response as well.
Not that this makes you feel any better, but it appears the AppleTV does the same thing.
I found some complaints that if you hook the AppleTV up to an AVR through HDMI, and then try to output from the AVR over component to your display you get a “Protected Content” warning and no output – even for the main menu.
I could see the warning popping up if the AppleTV was playing Netflix Content over an encrypted HDCP connection, since the AVR is not allowed to decode HDCP and then rebroadcast in HD, but it appears from the fact that not even the AppleTV’s menu will show, as if the AppleTV always sets the protection flags as well – or else it’s _ ALWAYS _ sending an encrypted signal.
So, maybe it’s not a bug, but a legal requirement after all.
Either the HDCP is always on from the WDTV Live (which it may be required to be) and the “snow” when starting Netflix is from some other hiccup, or there are flags being output over HDMI which is protecting the signal.
Either way, it’s looking like you may be out of luck for connecting in this manner.
Thats kind of out of order, a perfectly good device, not been able to “fully” function. This defeats the purpose of HD/surround audio been able to be carried via HDMI, a newish technology ruined due to copyright laws, no wonder people never want to buy stuff anymore…
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